Josiah Carlson ([info]chouyu_31) wrote,
@ 2008-03-26 11:01:00
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not all navigation technologies are created equal
In my job, I look at a lot of maps (part of my job is to work on routing and directions for our products). Our maps, Google's maps, Yahoo's maps, Microsoft's maps, ... The quality of map data from different vendors varies greatly, though I've only seen the data from two major vendors so far. There is one that I prefer, but perhaps that is due to familiarity.

There has been idle chitchat around the water cooler about using free data and software from something like openstreetmap.org. This is not serious talk, there is zero chance in hell of us switching to such products, but we get some giggles here and there. One of the reasons why no one is taking the idea seriously is because of the quality of product.

Firstly, the map data in certain areas is complete garbage; it's like a 5-year old with a set of crayons started drawing and said "this is my map". You only need to look at the area around Irvine and UCI in Google maps (with satellite images enabled to see how well things line up) and compare it with the osm.org stuff to see what I mean. Specifically look at the 73, the intersections with 73, etc. I would consider picking up a GPS unit and driving around to help (when I get my motorcycle), but I fear that such a hobby would begin to take up months of my life (just for the UCI area) due to the quality (or lack thereof) of the data that is already present. I think I'll pass. Those of you in Minnesota can also look at the Twin Cities area to notice that St. Paul isn't even listed as you zoom in. Wow, missing an entire city; the second city in the Twin Cities. What the crap?

That people have actually written software to convert the osm format data to img format to be used by Garmin GPS navigation devices makes me want to cry. Pay for the $100 yearly updates people! Or use a product that doesn't need to be updated (VZ Navigator for Verizon cell phones, AAA Mobile for certain Sprint handsets, ...)! But when your data is crap, you can't expect anything worthwhile to come from routing on it.

Even worse, the libraries and software are all written in Java to access the standard data storage system of MySQL (whose criticism I'll pass on expressing), which combine to make a practical cross-country routing system (with sub-1 second routes from LA to NYC) not possible. I could go on, but I won't.


Those of you who like using GPS units and making maps: openstreetmap.org could use your help. For everyone else who just wants to use the data: stick with your commercial mobile navigation setup (telephone, garmin, tomtom, magellan, etc.).


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[info]gunn
2008-03-26 07:09 pm UTC (link)
Saint Paul doesn't count! All they do is sleep, anyway!

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[info]kaulis
2008-03-26 08:03 pm UTC (link)
It bugs me frequently that no one—including my company, apparently—thinks it is cost-effective to keep track of where median breaks occur in divided highways, causing some seriously out-of-the-way U-Turns.

(I was actually fiddling with our dataset yesterday.)

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[info]chouyu_31
2008-03-26 09:58 pm UTC (link)
It all depends on the kind of highway, what areas, and what map provider. See: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=46.013081,+-95.775570&ie=UTF8&ll=46.013181,-95.775354&spn=0.002962,0.004554&z=18

But yeah, sometimes it isn't even a matter of highways; there are a lot of divided surface streets in California (with and without medians) where turn lanes are missing.

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(Anonymous)
2008-03-27 11:31 am UTC (link)
Er, what? I'm from the UK not the US, so different rules apply, but even so you're way off-beam here.

The libraries and software all written in Java - not at all true. There are a couple of Java tools (one of the editors, JOSM, and the bulk-handling tool, Osmosis). But the API is RESTful and can be accessed any-old-how, and the data dump is just XML. So there are Perl, .NET, Python, all manner of tools using OSM data. The site itself is Rails, with an online Flash editor; maps are rendered using one C++ tool and one XSLT/SVG. And MySQL - well, if you like; but you can use Postgres too (and people do).

On the Garmin stuff? Ok, so tell me where I can get - for any price, not just $100 - a Garmin map showing cycle routes, so I can put my eTrex on my handlebars and follow a route. I can do that with OpenStreetMap data.

The US data has only just been imported from TIGER and is pretty raw. No-one, at all, is suggesting that you use it right now for mass-market routing. Beating up on OSM for something it doesn't claim to do is pretty low.

Richard Fairhurst

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[info]chouyu_31
2008-03-27 10:13 pm UTC (link)
Richard,

All of the libraries I saw for interacting with the data (routing, updating the OSM data to help, etc.) were in Java. Indeed, I didn't dig too deeply, but I didn't really want to. Using a (remote) database as a data storage repository is great, but for high-speed interactivity, only embedded databases (like SQLite) or spatially indexed data sets are really practical for applications in which speed is crucial. Sometimes, not even embedded dbs are fast enough (bsddb).

Please understand, the routing products available at Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, and others (including the company I work for), are doing 5-10+ million segment lookups every second on a single core machine (and everyone is running a few hundred+ machines). Even with the caching scheme that is available in the software linked from the osm.org site, I'm doubtful that it's able to perform like that. And that's the kind of performance that is necessary to be able to offer anything but a toy.

I don't know about any bicycle map products. Sounds like a market segment that is looking for a product ;) .

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(Anonymous)
2008-03-28 11:07 am UTC (link)
Agreed on remote-vs-local, which is why you can download the entire dataset or a regional subset - see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Planet.osm - and load it into your own server; and plenty of people do. You can then load it into whatever database you like, spatially indexed or no: the core OSM site runs off MySQL with added quadtile functions in C, but it works pretty well in Postgres too.

As for G-Y-M, you don't need to say "please understand" - we're far from unaware of what G-Y-M do. Google's chief geospatial technologist was the keynote at the first OpenStreetMap conference, we have an agreement with Yahoo regarding their aerial imagery, we have a good relationship with Multimap (#2 in the UK and now part of Microsoft). Would our software and our servers cope with the high load they get? Of course not, there'd be no point in engineering it up to that level right now. But it copes with the load we get, and we scale it up as demand arises.

The main point of OSM is that you get the data and you go do what the hell you like with it. Bike maps are the perfect example - we have the product already. :)

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OSM
(Anonymous)
2008-03-27 03:10 pm UTC (link)
No, OSM isn't ready for primetime. Yet.

Am I surprised to see a commercial cartographer get all prickly about OSM? No. OSM is a warning shot across the bow; it (and projects like it) will put pressure on commercial cartography to make it better, cheaper, and with more customer-friendly EULAs.

People are sick of arcane map lock and $100/yr upgrade shenanigans.

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Re: OSM
[info]chouyu_31
2008-03-27 09:49 pm UTC (link)
I'm not a commercial cartographer. I'm a theoretical computer scientist who works for a mobile navigation company applying my knowledge to the realm of mobile navigation. I *consume* map data on a regular basis, and seeing poor quality map data, even free, frustrates me.

From what I understand, with some work, a person can pick up GDF formatted data from the USGS without terrible difficulty (I'm thinking of doing it myself so that I can write a package of tools that work similar to deCarta's, as the deCarta tools are also not terribly good). Yeah, GDF is an ugly format, but the spec is available.

Yes, I'm sure the data is getting better, and that's wonderful. But for the moment I can't see the data quality being sufficient for *anything*. Then again, I get to play with quarterly map data for free.

Regarding inexpensive upgrades, I hear from a friend TomTom offers free incremental upgrades every month or quarter.

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